Dyson & Sebo Vacuum Cleaner Repair & Advice Forums

Dyson Models => Second Generation "The Ball" Dysons. => Topic started by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 12:41:20 PM

Title: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
I thought it was time we took a look at the DC41 cleaner head, stripped one down for a look, and highlight what we think is a design fault.

Under the cleaner head is a small wheel and an axle, it should look like this:

[attachimg=1]

Unfortunately, the wheel (recycled from a DC18) and axle comes off, vanishes, the cleaner glues itself to the floor becoming hard to use, and it often looks like this:

[attachimg=2]

If the mounting for the axle has worn away, as the one above has done, it is part of the little gearbox that attaches to the brushroll motor, so isn't replaceable as Dyson won't (and history tells us they are unlikely to) sell the gearbox housings on their own.

If your wheel and axle have become detached and the mounting has worn, the only remedy is a full new cleaner head (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/Dyson/DC41-cleaner-head-assembly-920774-02) or a part cleanerhead (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/Dyson/DC41-hard-to-push-repair-assembly-923941-02).

In our opinion, that is a design fault.

For anyone who is interested in how to strip one down for examination, read below.....
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 12:46:56 PM
We'll start by removing the soleplate, by using the two thumb screws and turning them the usual quarter of a turn:

[attachimg=1]

Having done that, the brushroll is removed with the four Phillips screws indicated below:

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 12:49:14 PM
Next we undo the five T15 screws indicated below:

[attachimg=1]

And the top comes off like so:

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 12:53:20 PM
To allow the motor to be removed properly, we need to undo the two T8 screws that hold the brushroll drive cogs on, the two cogs are quite stiff to remove.

[attachimg=1]

Having removed the motor, the gearbox is split with a T8 and a T15 screw, allowing us to see the belt driven mechanism.

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: Dyson Tech on April 18, 2013, 01:01:09 PM
Now we can look at the motor closely, we find out that it is a Johnson DC77(2)XLLG, 240v DC, 505022000841.

Yes, the same one from the DC25, by the same company that also made the woeful DC24 brushroll motor.  :'(

We can remove what is left of the gearbox, together with the drive belt by undoing the two screws indicated below and taking off the belt:

[attachimg=1]

Having done so, we can see that it is the identical motor from the DC25 with different fittings screwed on.

[attachimg=2]

The very motor that Dyson refused to make available on its own in the DC25 forcing people to buy a new cleaner head.

However, we have some coming in. You can get more information on >>this topic<< (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/DysonForum/index.php/topic,914.0.html)

Meanwhile, we are stocking up on new cleaner heads and other DC41 stuff we think that will be in demand, and they will be in our new parts shop that is currently under construction.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on April 18, 2013, 05:55:12 PM
I was just reading some reviews on Dysons American site.

One said this:

Quote
it does not live up to the hype unless this is a defective unit. And now the system is broke, a little wheel on the brush head fell out and it does not clean.

Quote
Pushing this vacuum on our carpet is next to impossible. I would think that my grandmother would be able to use this vacuum but such is not the case. I have to push this thing across the carpet pretty hard and it shouldn't be that way. If this vacuum didn't have this issue I would keep it, but because my wife nor I are happy with it we are going to return it unless Dyson has any fixes or solutions?

Being hard to push is a symptom of the missing wheel.

From here: http://reviews.dyson.com/8787-en_us/DC41-IRSPU/reviews.htm?sort=rating&dir=asc

Cleaner heads have gone on backorder today (suggesting a large demand), and are showing two current part numbers, suggesting a design change of some kind already. So we ordered both to see what they changed.  :evilgrin0002:
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MartyGW on July 06, 2013, 09:59:10 PM
Knowing this has helped me to refuse two Dyson DC41's which sellers were trying to get me to take.  I noticed in each case that the wheel and axle were completely missing, so I did not go ahead with purchase.

The other annoying thing is the red circlip that holds the brush head to the body.  I have seen a number for sale where this clip is missing, and the head just falls off.  This item is less than 50p on the Dyson website, but you have to spend 3 if your order is under 35 on postage.  Would Manchester Vacs consider stocking this item, as it is so important, and is such a low cost item?
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on July 07, 2013, 04:52:08 PM
The C-Clip is part number 920750-01.

[attachimg=1]

We have some, but can only match Dysons price on them save a penny. They are here: DC41 C-Clip Connector (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/Dyson/DC41-c-clip-connector-920750-01).

I suspect that same as Dyson, as we also charge a flat postage up to a certain amount, the part sells for cost, and the profit - maybe a pound or so - comes out of the 2.99 delivery and handling charge.

The retail price is marked at 1.87, so if you added a pound for a jiffy bag and a stamp, another bit for profit and the card fee, its as broad as long as having it at 3.50 with free delivery.

Come and collect one and it can be a quid.



Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MartyGW on July 07, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
I was not aware you stocked them, so got from Dyson, but I agree that the postal service often makes more than the retailer with such parts, and why should the seller lose out?  It is interesting to see that there appears to be some news on these brushes in the pipeline......
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on August 24, 2013, 01:57:11 AM
I was not aware you stocked them,

We didn't until you mentioned it. But we do now. When we looked, none of the trade suppliers had them in, so we bugged our contact at Dyson and eventually they agreed to send us 100 of them. Which we now have. So they are in stock.

We like to be first to have stuff in.  :king:
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: jell on January 17, 2014, 08:45:04 PM
Have you consider fabricating an improved wheel assemble for this head unit since this one seems to be a problem for the dc41. I think it will have a greater impact on those who use it on hard surfaces since it will likely fail much faster but it will eventually impact even those who just use it on softer surfaces like carpet. Has dyson seen this as a design flaw and done a redesign or are they ignoring it?
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on January 17, 2014, 09:58:46 PM
We never got the earlier cleaner head we ordered, so it was superseded fast.

We sold quite a few of the ones they did send us though. So clearly there is some kind of issue going on with DC41 heads already. As we suspected.

We had problems identifying the exact part numbers they used on the wheel and axle, we ordered all sorts that other sites said it was and they were wrong when they arrived. Most were recycled DC18 parts. I have a drawer full of wrong ones.  :-\

A few days ago we have now nailed that, the right ones arrived, and we have half a dozen wheels and axles in. We haven't gotten around to Olga photographing them and getting them on the site yet. The DC41 back hose and the new after-market DC23 motor  :-X   is currently ahead of them kicking around my office at home.

To fabricate an improved assembly housing would be a larger task than most might imagine, and would take some  :money:.  I know the MD's of one or two of the big names quite well and have a pretty good grasp of what it takes to design and perfect an item, have moulds made, and bring an item to market. We test all the after-market Dyson prototypes for one of the big names in the UK. That stuff isn't pocket change to do.

We were the first in the UK to sell lots of Dyson stuff: Brushroll removal tools, after-market DC24 motors, we are still the only ones selling DC25 brushroll motors, we brought DC14 wand caps to market first (we tested the prototype), and new after-market DC07 bin flaps (we tested that prototype too).

I was planning to fund an after-market DC14 crevice tool at one time, but someone beat me to it while I was still investigating. I am glad they did, as we sell way fewer than I imagined we would. I think I dodged a bullet there!

So that DC41 housing, while, yes, an identified issue, the machines are not yet old enough for the demand to be great enough for the after-market to address it. The Dyson five year warranty is still sucking it up.



Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: jell on January 20, 2014, 04:35:14 AM
The five year warranty can be a bit of a farce. One of my friends was told that hers would longer be warranted because they had already sent her to many assemblies and that she must be misusing the product. Apparently, they claim the DC41 is not designed to be used on certain tile or certain hardwood floors  :'(. Which I find and incredibly limiting statement to make to make about a vacuum but does speak to a very limiting design.

I agree the R&D costs can be large but the good news is they are coming down at a very rapid pace. The onslaught of enhanced scanner technology combined with 3D printing, both of which costs have plummeted over the past few years, are opening up markets to recent engineering graduates or even those nearing graduation to niche markets. Combine that with minimalist overhead and you have a real virgin territory for entrepreneurs :grinn:
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on April 27, 2014, 06:33:51 PM
The cheapest way to fix the central wheel problem now is a part cleanerhead assembly.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

This includes the brushroll motor, and as they also a known fault, this kills two birds with one stone.

We keep these here: DC41 Part Cleanerhead Assembly (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/Dyson/DC41-hard-to-push-repair-assembly-923941-02).
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: katowilbur on June 18, 2014, 02:35:33 AM
I can't tell you enough how overjoyed I am to have found this post and this site.  I do Dyson repairs in Louisville, KY in the US.  Professional vac shops here all say Dysons are the worst thing in the history of the vacuum cleaner.  I couldn't disagree more.  More business for me I say.

I've been very disappointed in how little repair info there is online for the DC41.  This post was a godsend.  I was able to diagnose a broken belt.

I was wondering if anyone here can point me to similar instructions on disassembling the changeover valve assembly.  If not, perhaps I'll post one myself once I've worked it out.

Thanks for being here.

Kato
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on June 18, 2014, 09:17:26 AM
Welcome to the site Kato. Good to have you here, stick around.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: brokendyson on February 18, 2015, 12:37:19 AM
Good evening,

I stumbled onto this site when looking for the dreaded central wheel problem on my DC41.  I called a local repair shop near me and they told me that I had to replace the entire head ($160 US). 

A few posts earlier on this site showed what looked like an alternative solution, partial head replacement.  That is good news.  I haven't dug into it yet but my central wheel is just starting to fail and get hung up. 

With that being said, can I just replace the wheel seeing as the place to hold the axle is still intact?  Or do I need to replace the head with either a partial or full change out?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on February 18, 2015, 09:24:04 AM
May I see a photo head on of where the axle sits please?
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: brokendyson on February 26, 2015, 06:01:27 PM
MVacs,

I mistakenly posted my reply to a different thread.  Here is the picture of the wheel as you requested. 

[attachimg=1]

The wheel is still on it's axel and the axel is still in its carriage.  The only issue is the rubber is coming off the wheel and gets hung up preventing the wheel from turning properly.  Can I just replace the wheel?
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on February 26, 2015, 08:20:22 PM
If the axle mountings are not worn, you could change the wheel.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: brokendyson on February 27, 2015, 10:21:11 PM
Great! Can I order that wheel from you all or is there a good supplier in the US that you would recommend?
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on February 28, 2015, 12:30:51 AM
Great! Can I order that wheel from you all or is there a good supplier in the US that you would recommend?

We have them, I'll check the price and come back to you with a part number too and you can choose.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: snappycow1 on July 11, 2015, 03:51:21 AM
Hi - just wondering if I'd be able to order a wheel from you if you still have them in stock?

D

We never got the earlier cleaner head we ordered, so it was superseded fast.

We sold quite a few of the ones they did send us though. So clearly there is some kind of issue going on with DC41 heads already. As we suspected.

We had problems identifying the exact part numbers they used on the wheel and axle, we ordered all sorts that other sites said it was and they were wrong when they arrived. Most were recycled DC18 parts. I have a drawer full of wrong ones.  :-\

A few days ago we have now nailed that, the right ones arrived, and we have half a dozen wheels and axles in. We haven't gotten around to Olga photographing them and getting them on the site yet. The DC41 back hose and the new after-market DC23 motor  :-X   is currently ahead of them kicking around my office at home.

To fabricate an improved assembly housing would be a larger task than most might imagine, and would take some  :money:.  I know the MD's of one or two of the big names quite well and have a pretty good grasp of what it takes to design and perfect an item, have moulds made, and bring an item to market. We test all the after-market Dyson prototypes for one of the big names in the UK. That stuff isn't pocket change to do.

We were the first in the UK to sell lots of Dyson stuff: Brushroll removal tools, after-market DC24 motors, we are still the only ones selling DC25 brushroll motors, we brought DC14 wand caps to market first (we tested the prototype), and new after-market DC07 bin flaps (we tested that prototype too).

I was planning to fund an after-market DC14 crevice tool at one time, but someone beat me to it while I was still investigating. I am glad they did, as we sell way fewer than I imagined we would. I think I dodged a bullet there!

So that DC41 housing, while, yes, an identified issue, the machines are not yet old enough for the demand to be great enough for the after-market to address it. The Dyson five year warranty is still sucking it up.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on July 11, 2015, 09:57:39 AM
Hi - just wondering if I'd be able to order a wheel from you if you still have them in stock?

No problem. We'll reply your email today.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: snappycow1 on July 12, 2015, 11:15:35 AM
Hi - just wondering if I'd be able to order a wheel from you if you still have them in stock?

No problem. We'll reply your email today.  :thumbsup:

Thanks so much. I *think* just the wheel will work as I don't believe there's further damage (yet). Once I receive your email I can send you a pic of it close up for your opinion. It doesn't appear to be damaged, just the wheel and axle missing.  Is this going to my registered email or to the message box on this site (so I keep an eye out)?

Cheerio,

Donna
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on July 12, 2015, 12:27:22 PM
Hi - just wondering if I'd be able to order a wheel from you if you still have them in stock?

No problem. We'll reply your email today.  :thumbsup:

Thanks so much. I *think* just the wheel will work as I don't believe there's further damage (yet). Once I receive your email I can send you a pic of it close up for your opinion. It doesn't appear to be damaged, just the wheel and axle missing.  Is this going to my registered email or to the message box on this site (so I keep an eye out)?

Cheerio,

Donna

Check your email Donna.  ;)
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: rstooks21 on January 06, 2016, 09:21:49 PM
Just wanted to say a huge thanks for this piece.  It helped me diagnose and fix the "Dyson stuck to the floor" issue I was having.  Just needed the spare wheel you sent me, this article and a little time.   If I'd read the whole article properly first, I'd have known that I needed a Torx 15 AND a Torx 8 screwdriver to complete the job, so would have saved myself another day's delay with the Diesoon ( ;)) in bits.  It's back together now, de-haired; defluffed and pushable.  Happy days.

Richard
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: AdamF on January 09, 2017, 02:12:52 PM
Hello,
 Could Mvacs please put a link to the wheel as I am in need of one .

Thanks in Advance Adam.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on January 09, 2017, 09:08:52 PM
They are >>here<< (https://manchestervacs.co.uk/Dyson/DC41-soleplate-wheel) but no longer cheap as Dyson have just massively increased their prices on all genuine stuff across the board.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: taran57 on January 10, 2017, 04:28:04 AM
I only order genuine stuff if i have a collection machine, i find the quality of the pattern parts to be good and people are usually happy with them.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: MVacs on January 10, 2017, 08:08:49 AM
I only order genuine stuff if i have a collection machine, i find the quality of the pattern parts to be good and people are usually happy with them.

Nobody else makes that wheel that I know of, and Dyson later changed the design.
Title: Re: Stripping Down a DC41 Cleaner Head: Brushroll Motor & Design Faults
Post by: AdamF on January 10, 2017, 09:00:21 AM
Thank you for the link  :thumbsup: